442ndRCT Soldier's Forum

Guess the rifle?

This is a picture of Tim's Dad in Italy. He has a rifle slung over his shoulder - What is the rifle?

You know I've been trying to figure that out for years. I used to think it was a BAR but you have to remember he was really short, maybe 5'6" tall so the perspective is off. Then I thought it was a Carbine, but someone else thought it was a K-98. I'm pretty sure it isn't a K-98, but it still has me stumped.

One thing I noticed is the sling seems to be attach to the butt of rifle near the trigger vs the bottom. Next is the butt of the rifle seems to have a metal butt plate which shows more metal, given the metal seems to be picking up the light in the photograph.

Here are our choices

davep wrote:One thing I noticed is the sling seems to be attach to the butt of rifle near the trigger vs the bottom. Next is the butt of the rifle seems to have a metal butt plate which shows more metal, given the metal seems to be picking up the light in the photograph.

Seems to me like that is a leather pad because it flanges out and theres nothing I can think of in the combatants of WW2 that had a but that had a flanged butt plate that big.

Maybe we are completely missing the mark. I wonder if it isn't a weapon at all but something else like a MG tripod or ?

Still stumped after all these years.

If you look at the sling/strap as it comes over Tim's Dad's shoulder, right around where his "thumb" is you notice that it looks like it is attach to the "item in question" by what looks like a clip or a square ring. And that square ring is what is then attached to the "item"

Im surprised you can see that much! All I can see above the stock is a blur! I might take this to the crazies at WW2 zone and see what theories they can come up with.

It looks like an SMLE to me... the buttplate is a giveaway.

But the German K-98 (Rfile 165) in the pictures, also has a large butt plate that actually shows more metal than the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield). Plus the Enfield connects to the Sling/Strap down by the bottom of the butt. The rifle in question, seems to connected further up very similar to the Mauser #165.

davep wrote:But the German K-98 (Rfile 165) in the pictures, also has a large butt plate that actually shows more metal than the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield). Plus the Enfield connects to the Sling/Strap down by the bottom of the butt. The rifle in question, seems to connected further up very similar to the Mauser #165

But we'd also see the hole that was shaped out of the stock for the sling as well as on this side, the metal side stock button for disassemling the bolt IIRC.

Has a Mannlicher-Caracano (sp) been suggested?

I also wonder if there is any significances to the fact Tim's Dad isn't wearing an ammo belt. Accordingly the weapon could be something else. Also notice that the "item" although slung over Tim's Dad's shoulder it droops below his knee cap. If you sling your M1 Garand you'll notice it comes to your butt, around your pockets. Now Tim said his Dad was short, but to have a rifle droop below one's knee cap doesn't see reasonable. If this was a rifle I don't think it would be so low to the ground.

davep wrote:I also wonder if there is any significances to the fact Tim's Dad isn't wearing an ammo belt. Accordingly the weapon could be something else. Also notice that the "item" although slung over Tim's Dad's shoulder it droops below his knee cap. If you sling your M1 Garand you'll notice it comes to your butt, around your pockets. Now Tim said his Dad was short, but to have a rifle droop below one's knee cap doesn't see reasonable. If this was a rifle I don't think it would be so low to the ground.

Yeah but also think about how loose the sling is. If its really loose then you can have it dangling as low as you want. Especially considering he isn't holding it with his hand. From the fact that it couldn't be a BAR or M1, I'm thinking the lack of ammo belt can be justified with this being a battle trophy... Its not American and we've got theories on what it could and couldn't be.

There is a very good reason he doesn't have an ammo belt. He was an Assistant gunner on a Machine gun crew. I would think the weapon he would be carrying would be a carbine. He told me once his entire crew was issued .45's but he doesn't appear to be wearing one here.

He was very, very short too. So the rifle butt by his knee would not have been unusual. He was typical of the average Nisei soldier back then. I know prior to the war he couldn't become a Border Patrol officer like he wanted to because he was too short for their requirements. That is why he enlisted because they would have accepted him if he had a military background.

This picture has so much shading in it. I bet it was taken very late or early in the morning from the length of the shadow behind him. If you stare at it long enough you could imagine a .45 holster by his right hand.

Tim, I agree what ever it is, it wasn't his normal weapon. Also as you have mentioned before it may not even be a rifle. If it was a special weapon, he would probably have displayed it. The fact it's on his shoulder, it may some sort of tool with a strap on it.

Here's another thought although I think this is kinda out there. It appears in this photo he has his CIB on his shirt. Also because his web gear is so light I would not be surprised if there was a possibility that that isn't a rifle but perhaps a guidon in a storage bag and he has just come from a pass and review or something.

The actual photo is half the size of what we have been posting here or not any bigger than that. Possibly a professional might be able to blow it up and improve the resolution but even Hollywood would be hard pressed to make this mystery any clearer. On the back their is a caption though that says, "Moving" suggesting this is a photo of him heading out with the unit on their way to being deployed, but that isn't clear either.